The House of Representatives is in a state of flux after California Republican Kevin McCarthy was ousted as Speaker in an effort led by the far-right Freedom Caucus.
Ohio Representative Jim Jordan and Louisiana’s Steve Scalise say they will run to replace McCarthy, but it’s unclear if anyone will be able to reach the 218-vote threshold that McCarthy needed 15 rounds of voting to attain earlier this year.
McCarthy’s fate was partially sealed when Democrats voted as a bloc and refused to support his bid to remain in the role. Massachusetts Congressman Richard Neal, a Democrat from the 1st district, spoke with WAMC Wednesday.
I guess the big question is, why did the Democrats decide in a group not to bail McCarthy out of the speaker vote on Tuesday?
Well, I think there were a series of considerations that we undertook, not the least of which was he refused after the attack on the Capitol on January 6, to confirm the result of the presidential election. He criticized the former president on that day and then flew to Mar-a- Lago for a reunion with him in which he renounced what he had just said a few days before. I think the other very important factor was noting that he made an agreement with President Biden to raise the debt ceiling, which is a responsibility that we have. And then in subsequent days, to save his job with the hard right in his party, he reneged. And I think that the last straw was where there had been perhaps some open minds was with the Sunday talk shows when he decided that he was going to try to spend the result of what happened on Saturday by saying that the Democrats had been responsible for the government shutdown, and for many Democrats at the caucus yesterday morning, that was a bridge too far.
So what happens now? We have both Jim Jordan of Ohio and Steve Scalise from Louisiana saying they will run for Speaker. Do you expect either of them will be able to get enough votes?
Well, it's hard to say. But I think that one of the considerations that we're going to have to entertain going forward is that you can't allow 6,7, 8 maybe 20 Republican hardline, right-wing conservatives to determine the fate of some major legislation that we have coming up. So I think that if it's Scalise, who has some legislative skill, and I've known him, he's nice enough to talk to. But it's important to remember that it's governing that's going to take us forward, not grandstanding.
Is there a scenario in the future when Democrats and the more mainstream Republicans might come together on a candidate so as to cut out the Freedom Caucus’ power that you just mentioned?
Well, I think Republicans are going to have to break the MAGA fever. I think that's a big consideration for them, they're going to have to decide sooner or later, if they want to govern or if they just want to stand on the sidelines and lob hand grenades into the caucus. The Republican conference, as it's called, are as upset with these folks as anybody in Congress. But they have to demonstrate the ability now to seek separation from them, and get away from some of the party line votes that they've taken.
You've been in that chamber for decades now. What is it like not having a speaker for the first time?
Well, I've seen and sat through probably nine speakers. I have been part of three presidential impeachments. I've voted on war twice. I've served with presidents all the way back to the last days of Ronald Reagan. And I must tell you, that in the 240-year history of the House, this was precedent-setting.
Do you fear that whoever becomes the next speaker will also just be on the same sort of ticking clock and that you'll see a number of more speakers come through for the rest of this term?
Well, I think what happened with Kevin McCarthy was that he decided to acquiesce to these outrageous demands. And Paul Ryan decided that he was going to leave, John Boehner decided he was going to leave. Kevin McCarthy, perhaps in retrospect, should have decided that he was ready to leave.
Have you talked to him at all during this process?
No, it's kind of an interesting evolution that Kevin McCarthy underwent. And that was that 10 years ago, he would have been somebody you might have bumped into in the gym in late evening, or you might have had a conversation with on the floor. But as is too often the case, because of the way that the polarization of the institution is has settled in, that he became a devotee of the hard right of his caucus to hold on to his job. So essentially, he had 20 people who were deciding his fate and in the end those 20 people who he had done somersaults to try to please, they turned on him.
You predicted on our Congressional Corner interview series that McCarthy had doomed his speakership and was on borrowed time. That proved to be true. Do you think that Matt Gaetz will likely be expelled by the Republicans now?
I can't speak for what the Republican conference will do with Matt Gaetz. But I can tell you this: anybody who thinks that Matt Gaetz is going to be calm going forward, they're making a terrible miscalculation. This is all about him. This is about social media. This is about fundraising. This really is about eyeballs on the internet. That's where he is and he wants to run for governor of Florida. So whether we like it or not, his candidacy for governor is dictating what he's attempted to do by moving really hard right from his previously hard right position.
