The embattled longtime chair of the Massachusetts Republican Party has been ousted. Jim Lyons, a steadfast Trump backer who frequently clashed with two-term Governor Charlie Baker and often wound up in the headlines for controversial statements, was narrowly voted out Tuesday. The state committee backed Amy Carnevale instead. She’s a Washington lobbyist from Marblehead. Lyons’ ouster following two terms comes after the party lost all statewide elections in November. The party election also centered on the state GOP’s dismal financial situation. WAMC’s Ian Pickus spoke with Emma Platoff of the Boston Globe.
So, what led up to the dissatisfaction and then the eventual change in leadership in the state party?
First of all, I think it's important to say, it's just hard to be a Republican in Massachusetts, they're in the political minority, it's hard to raise money, it's hard to win elections. In recent years, the party has been bitterly divided between a sort of more conservative faction in favor of Jim Lyons, and a more moderate centrist pragmatic wing that supported the former governor, Charlie Baker. And we've really seen those divisions damage the party electorally, and in terms of fundraising, and that's sort of set the stage for Jim Lyons to face this tough reelection battle. Then just in a few weeks in the lead up to the election, there's been sort of a steady drip of bad news for Chairman Lyons, including the Globe reported based on documents and correspondence and invoices that we obtained, that the party had more than $100,000 in unpaid bills as of the end of last year, that it had spent $1,800 investigating its own members, and that Chairman Lyons has actually been accused of potentially violating campaign finance law by coordinating with an outside super PAC.
With the vote on Tuesday, obviously, a different case was made for the future of the party by Amy Carnevale. Tell us about her. How did she rise to this role?
Amy Carnevale is a longtime Republican. She's worked in the White House. She's worked on Capitol Hill. She's been on the Republican State Committee here for I believe, about a decade. She's worked in these sorts of professional Republican circles, and she made a somewhat different pitch to the party than Lyons did. She is a conservative. She emphasized that she backed Donald Trump in 2016, before it was fashionable. She certainly is not promising to compromise on any of the GOP’s conservative principles. But she said, “It is not enough just to be showing up with strong ideas we have to win elections.” So, presenting sort of a pragmatic alternative to what Lyons has done over the last four years.
Now, where does the party go from here? Specifically, what has to be done for her to be successful in those efforts?
This is a period of rebuilding for the Republican Party in Massachusetts. It's a ways away before they have their next chance at statewide office, but between then and now, the party needs to get its finances in order. It needs to ensure that all of its vendors have been paid, work on internal staffing needs and try to heal the internal divisions that have made it hard for the party to make progress electorally here.
There are some bright spots for the Republicans in Massachusetts. Charlie Baker just left after really being one of the most popular governors in America over his two terms. How likely is it that the GOP will be able to make fresh inroads in the future?
That I think really remains to be seen, and it depends on what kind of candidate they want to run in four years. Charlie Baker won by sort of copying the model of successful Massachusetts Republican governors here, you know, Bill Weld, Paul Cellucci, Mitt Romney to a certain extent, staying away from national social issue controversies. In the case of Charlie Baker, staying away from Donald Trump and just sort of talking about meat and potatoes issues, taxes, the economy, telling voters that you'll be a steady hand on the wheel. We've seen that succeed in Massachusetts in the past. Some people are surprised to hear that Republicans held the governor's office here for most of the last 30 years despite it being such a blue state. So certainly, history gives Republicans an opportunity if they can find the right candidate.
What do we know about Carnevale's current alliances with any recent officeholders or other officials? How does she actually do this sort of grassroots work now?
Carnevale has pledged to sort of make inroads with all parts of the Republican Party. Her backers mostly came from the more moderate side of the Republican State Committee, but that's by no means a signal that the party will be turning away from its conservative principles. I think it sort of remains to be seen where exactly she wants to take the party in the future. She has worked on conservative planks of the party platform. She was an early supporter of Trump, as we've discussed, and interestingly, neither she nor Jim Lyons even mentioned Charlie Baker in their remarks, kind of a notable absence for someone who, as you said, was the most popular, one of those popular governors in the country for so long.
How did now-former chairman Lyons take his defeat and what comes next for him?
Chairman Lyons shook Amy Carnevale’s hand after he gave a brief concession speech. He owns a small shop that sells flowers and ice cream and he jokingly reminded those in attendance that Valentine's Day is coming up. He also said that he will never stop fighting for liberty, freedom and for life. He's ardently anti-abortion. So, it remains to be seen exactly what's next for him, but he's certainly seemed to telegraph that he's not done in politics.
It occurs to me the 2024 Republican primary is quickly approaching. More candidates are announcing their intentions to get into the field and the neighboring New Hampshire primary will obviously be a very important battleground. Do we have any sense about where the Republican Party in Massachusetts is lining up or appears to be lining up here in the early going?
I think a lot of that remains to be seen. Carnevale was asked that question last night, and she made the point that she's obviously been a strong Trump supporter in the past, she said, you know, as party chair, she's going to remain neutral. There are different stripes of Republicans in Massachusetts, right? And I think it stands to reason that it may line up in different places, but some of that will become more clear as the field takes shape.
Is Trump still popular with Massachusetts Republicans?
He's popular with many Massachusetts Republicans, you know, even just anecdotally, there were a lot of MAGA hats, a lot of Trump t-shirts of the folks in attendance. But we know that generally, he's not popular among the statewide electorate.
I noticed that the Democratic Party in Massachusetts put out a statement about the change in leadership on the other side of the aisle, which was somewhat unusual. Let me ask you about the Democrats for a moment. They've obviously had huge gains in November, they won back the governorship. But as we've seen often in other states and in past eras, one-party leadership and one-party government does not always go smoothly. What's the state of the Democratic Party in Massachusetts right now?
Well, as you mentioned, we have a new governor. Democrat Maura Healey, she was just sworn in a few weeks ago. Democrats have even stronger super majorities in the legislature than they've had in more than a decade. They have more than 170 of the 200 seats in the legislature here. Just because they're all Democrats doesn't mean they all agree, right? There are certainly progressive figures at the state capitol who are leading major cities in Massachusetts, who sort of come down to the left of the governor and some members of the legislature on major issues, but it's really just starting to get going here with the start of the legislative session.
