For two decades, C.C. Sabathia was one of baseball’s most successful, and competitive, pitchers. The 6-foot-6 southpaw who retired in 2019 is now probably on his way to Cooperstown, with 3,093 strikeouts, a Cy Young Award, six all-star appearances, 26 playoff games and the 2009 World Series title. But at the same time he was starring for the Yankees, Sabathia was keeping a dangerous secret – an ongoing problem with alcohol that eventually caused him to miss the playoffs in favor of rehab.
That painful period, and Sabathia’s road to the big leagues, are featured in the new documentary “Under the Grapefruit Tree,” which premieres on HBO Tuesday.
Trailer
Today, Sabathia says he has a new outlook on life — and life after baseball.
2020 has been such a strange year. You retired one year before the pandemic and everything that has gone on. How are you?
Good, good. Thank you. Thanks for asking. My family’s doing well. We’ve blessed during this time, you know, not having anybody sick so far. So I'm just going to hopefully continue to be safe. And you know, we can get through this and, you know, be good on the other side.
A lot of retired athletes are so used to the grind and having their schedule mapped out down to the minute sometimes. What have you been doing with this extra time?
You know what, it's been good, actually, you know, I have four kids, so spending the time with them. My oldest plays baseball, so, I’m on the road a lot with him. You know, even during this pandemic, they play pretty much all summer. So, you know, there's been a lot of time with him, I work out a lot. And just like, enjoy being a dad. Like you said, our time is mapped out for so much of our lives while we're playing, that, I think it's good to not be on the schedule for a little while.
You said in the film that you were kind of ready to be done with baseball by the time that came up in 2019. Now that you've been away from the game for a little while, has your perspective on that changed at all? Do you miss the game?
Absolutely not. I wish I wish I could say that I do. And, you know, I miss being out there. But I don't. I mean, I think I did it for so long. And you know, I started playing baseball when I was 5 years old. So the nervousness and the anxiousness for big games started back then. So you know, I've been feeling that for a long time. So it was just time to move on to the next phase of my life and be kind of be done with the competition part of my life, if that makes sense.
Yeah, and the movie kind of ends with showing you watching Little C, your son, playing baseball. When you watch him play, are you able to enjoy the process more than when you were playing?
Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, being able to watch him, have conversations with him, trying to help guide him to, you know, his next phase in baseball life and life is, you know, trying to get to college. So, it's been a lot of fun. Obviously, me going through that same thing that he's going through now, you know, basically 20 something years ago, you know, it's fun to be able to relive it now. And, you know, meet with all these different schools and watching him play and, you know, having conversations about the game. It's a lot of fun, and it keeps me in and I think maybe that's why I don't miss it as much.
Are there things that you're able to tell him that you wish you knew about baseball when you were his age?
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, just, you know, the mental side of it. Thinking your way through the game, the at-bats. The thing about him is, like me, his baseball IQ is super high. So there's not much that you have to tell him. It's just more situational stuff. And, you know, thinking his way through at-bats, and, you know, his approach at the plate and stuff like that. It's a lot of fun to be able to talk to him. I mean, he's super mature. He's 17 years old, and, but he's a mature 17. And, you know, like I said, his baseball IQ is really high so we can have some fun conversations.
As we speak, CC, there have been some developments in the sport that I want to ask you about. In the documentary, you take a lot of pride in your success as an African American baseball player. You were one of the biggest Black superstars of your time, at a time when the sport has really struggled to develop those. And now baseball has announced that it's going to consider the Negro Leagues and its statistics as a major league. What's your reaction to that?
About time. Those guys deserve their due. Phenomenal ballplayers across the board. I mean, even if you just look at, you know, after they integrated the game, you know in the National League, the next nine out of 11 MVPs were from the Negro Leagues. I think a lot of people think that the Negro Leagues were these backyard, exhibition baseball, that you know, people didn't really pay attention to. No. These guys are really, really, really great baseball players that deserve to be recognized. And when they had a chance to play with MLB stars, they had a higher winning percentage. So I don't want to hear anything about the talent level or anything like that, because these guys deserve all the credit that they get. Now they deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. And they deserve to be recognized.
You know, I think the sport had to integrate because they were so good. It wasn't like they helped out a failing business. The Negro Leagues weren’t failing. The business was booming, actually. They had to integrate it because the ballplayers on the other side were pretty much a better than the guys they had in MLB. So it's fun now to be able to, you know, have these guys get their due hopefully, you know, get a lot of these guys in the MLB Hall of Fame.
A lot of young Black men in this country don't go into baseball, when they have options in athletics. You starred in multiple sports, but you ended up signing a baseball contract. How come you decided to play baseball instead of another sport?
You know what? It was just just drafted where I did. You know, I think the biggest thing is for a kid like me these days is that you can't get a full baseball scholarship. So somebody like me, you know, growing up, I played all three sports, and I had full scholarships in football and basketball, and I had partials in baseball. So I wouldn't have been able to go to college on a baseball scholarship anyway. My parents, my mom wouldn't be able to make up the difference in the, you know, 60% or 70% scholarship that I would have got. So it kind of presses us out of the game where if you have a kid that has to make that choice, the game kind of makes a choice for him, because you can't get a full scholarship, you know. So I think we need to look into all those different things and, you know, try to give these kids better opportunities to get to college baseball.
That brings me to my next question. You were drafted, of course, by the Cleveland Indians, where you starred for many seasons. They've announced that they're going to come up with a new name, and retire ‘Indians’ as the name. What do you think of that?
I think it's the right thing to do. I think if it offends one person, then it's the right thing to do. I mean, the seven and a half years that I played there, you know, there were always people out there protesting the name, standing out front of the stadium, even, you know, opening day, it was always a big deal where people would be outside, you know, protesting the name of the team. So, I think the Indians are doing the right thing, and, you know, taking a look into it and changing their name, and hopefully they come up with something good.
Let me ask you a little bit about the movie. It’s a warts and all portrayal of your struggles. Why did you want to be so honest about the trials and tribulations that you went through?
Just so maybe I can help somebody. I think the hardest thing about, you know, facing addiction is actually facing it and actually saying that you need help. Hopefully somebody can watch this documentary, and get some help if they need it. You know, like I said, the hardest thing about, you know, going to rehab or admitting that addiction is actually admitting it. Everything after that is great. The last five years of my life have been really wonderful. And even the time that I spent in rehab, you know, I really enjoyed, to be honest. I was going away for 29 days, you know, able to work on myself, no cell phones, just be able have a peace of mind. You know, I tell my wife, now, I will pay to be able to go back and do that now and just get a month to be able to reset. So I think, you know, hopefully people can watch this doc and take the next step and turn their life around.
One question I had from the film: You trace a lot of the pain you were feeling from your on again, off again, relationship with your father. He was in and out of your life, and then he died very young. So he didn't get to see all of your success in baseball later. I was wondering, how much of your problem with alcohol stemmed from that, and how much of it was the pressure of having to perform on the baseball field at such a high level?
I think it would have been, you know, 70%, my father and 30% of the baseball pressure. You know, I kind of used the baseball pressure as just the reason to drink. I think that the biggest thing that that was ailing me and not just my dad was my grandmother, too, you know, and then my cousin passed away in 2012. I’ve dealt with so much death. I mean, those are just three big ones. I had an uncle and a cousin pass away six months after my father passed away in 2003. My cousin passed away, literally, I started in New York. He died that night, and then I came home. We did the funeral and I pitched in five days. I didn't miss a start. So I didn't even get my chance to mourn or think about any of that stuff. I just kept going. And I think that that's what sent me down that spiral into, you know, abusing alcohol and addiction and, you know, ended up in rehab.
Have you found another way to deal with grief or challenges in life now that you're not drinking anymore? Do you have any advice for how to confront stuff like that?
Well, I think I think it's just, you know, going to therapy, you know, actually confronting it, and not trying to run from it and dealing with the emotions of it. And, you know, just doing a lot of reading about, you know, trying to keep a level head and a clear mind. And, you know, making sure that you're feeling good every day. And, you know, mental health is a tough thing, a real thing. And I would always encourage people to try to get as much help as possible.
How did your experience with your father in your life influence the way that you're raising your kids? And what kind of dad you are?
I think it makes me a great dad, because, you know, my childhood was up until I was 12, my childhood was great with my father. We were together every day. And that's why I say in the doc, you know, had he been living right now, him and Little C would be so close. My relationship with my son is the relationship that I had with my dad. I just know that if he was here, he would be at all these tournaments, all these different games. And, you know, I just know that they would be super close. So that that makes me miss him for sure.
I want to talk to you about the title of the film, which is “Under the Grapefruit Tree” and your upbringing in Vallejo, California. It comes from your experience in the backyard of your grandmother's house throwing grapefruits at a folding chair; that was your first strike zone. How did that teach you how to pitch?
People think like, I would throw it at the back of the chair, but I would throw through the little hole in the back of the chair, if that makes sense. The back part, that was my little strike zone. So I like by the time I was 7 or 8 years old, I could throw the ball wherever I wanted. That's how it helped me. I didn't take pitching lessons. I've never had a pitching coach, or, you know, all these one on ones in private that these kids do today. I never did that. I was in my backyard with grapefruits, you know, locking in on the back part of the chair. And if I could throw the grapefruits in there, then I knew I could throw a baseball through anything.
A lot of times when we watch the game, it's clear that a pitcher on a given day doesn't have the command that they would normally have. I know you went through this in your career. Sometimes you go out there and it's not going where you want it. First of all, why does that happen?
I think if guys knew that, then, you know, you would see everybody have an ERA in the 2s.
So second part of that question. When that is the case, when you're warming up and it just doesn't feel right, or the first inning has hasn't gone well, what do you do? Because, you know, the manager is counting on you to go 5, 6, 7 innings.
That's when it’s just battle mode. And that's when you see who is tough and who isn't, you know. Everybody can pitch when they got their good stuff. But the guy that can go out there and battle, when they can't throw strikes, when their breaking ball’s not working, and go out and give you six tough innings, give them two or three runs and keep you in a game and give you a chance to win….That's the guy I want on my team. You know, Luis Severino does a great job of that as a young pitcher. You know, if he's not feeling great, he can still go out and give you six innings. And you know, that's an ace. And that's something that Dave Burba taught me. Bend but don’t break. Do whatever you got to do to keep us up and them down. Whatever that is, if you got to make up pitches, do that. And it's just, it's just going into battle mode. I learned that early from my older mentors Dave Burba and Chuck Finley, and it just stuck with me.
Do you regret seeing the change in the game where sometimes teams are now using their best relievers in what's known as a high-leverage situation, in, like, the fifth inning — and that's the end of the starter — because they think the game might turn at that point? What do you think of that dynamic?
Yeah, I mean, that's just the way the game has gone. And, you know, everybody's trying to build a super bullpen these days. And, you know, have a guy for each inning. I think if you look at the teams that have actually won the World Series the past couple years, they've done it with starting pitching. You know, everybody tries to use one formula to win during the season, and using openers and all this different stuff. But when you get to the playoffs, you need three starters to win, you need three starters to go six, seven innings to give you a chance to win a World Series and you know, at some point, it'll revert back to where you need starters to give you lead.
In 2009, you signed a huge contract as a free agent to come to the Yankees. They spent a ton of money in that offseason, opened the new stadium in 2009, and won the World Series the first year there. What are your memories of that experience and that first year?
The one thing that I remember from ‘09 is that it just felt like we were gonna win every night, you know, we had so many walkoffs and so many comebacks, and it was just a lot of fun to be around. And you just got the sense by August that that we had a pretty good chance to win the World Series. So it was it was a lot of fun that year. I mean, that was probably the best team I've ever been on my career, and as far as closeness, too. It was very enjoyable to be on that team. And, you know, to win here in New York, the first year of the stadium, was incredible.
I think something that fans always wonder because we take it so seriously is, when you don't win and the season comes to an abrupt ending in the playoffs, how hard do players take that?
Yeah, that's tough, especially, you know, the later it gets in the playoffs. You know, you get this feeling of you got a chance to win, especially if you won before, you know what that feeling is like, and later you get into playoffs, it's tough to deal with that with that loss, and that crushing loss, but you give yourself a couple of weeks, get right back after it. Here in New York, you know you're gonna be right back in the playoffs, you know you’re going to have that opportunity again, so you better be ready and try to learn from your mistakes and get it done this time.
Is there one year from post-2009 that bothers you more than any other years because you guys didn't get it done?
Um, '10 and '11, to be honest, because that was the same team. And we were really good we did, but for whatever reason, we just couldn't put it together. But I thought for sure after we won in '09, we would’ve won again by 2012.
I want to ask you about 2012. Now, if I'm thinking about a favorite CC Sabathia memory, it's got to be Game Five of the ALDS against the Orioles in 2012. You pitched a complete game, the Yankees won 3-1. It was a low-scoring affair, maybe one of the most tense baseball games I've ever watched. And you, of course, pitched for the second time in the series to win the game. How did you make it through a complete game and that kind of pressure cooker?
You know what? That game wasn't even that intense. I guess everybody knew it was Game Five so it was intense for everybody else. But for me, it was like, I don't know. I was I just was feeling good. I kind of felt like I was in a groove and it wasn't that intense. The only part that got really like it got a little dicey for me was Nate McLouth when he just hit the homer foul. And then once they call that foul, I was like, man, that was y’all chance to score. I was not making more mistakes. I literally just had like a mental lapse, threw him a slider. And he hit it pretty good. I knew it was foul. They were begging for it to be fair, but once they called it foul, I was like, oh, that’s game. For whatever reason, going into that Game Five, I knew we were going to win. But you know, I can't explain to you why. I just felt really good about it.
I mentioned in the lead that I think you have a very good chance to make it to the Hall of Fame here in Cooperstown. Do you give any thought to that?
Oh, yeah. Now that I'm done playing, for sure. I mean, I would love to be able to go into Cooperstown. I mean, obviously a kid like myself from the inner city of Vallejo to be able to go into Cooperstown. This is obviously a dream. I mean, I never even played or could dream about going to Cooperstown. It was just always, you know, trying to make my next start. When I was early, when I was younger, not get sent down. And to be able to sit here now and you know, have people consider my career a Hall of Fame career. I mean, that's, that's just an accomplishment in itself. So that's a blessing. But if I ever got a chance to get in, I mean, that would be awesome.
I know you said you don't miss the game day to day but do you think there's a chance you'll ever get back into coaching? Will we see you in a dugout sometime?
No. No coaching. Definitely, like around the park, though. You know, but like I said, I just don't know if I can get back on that schedule where, you know, it’s dominating my summer. You know, maybe when my kids are older. Maybe when I'm in a different space when I'm in my 50s, 10 years from now, but right now, I just want to enjoy being a dad and kind of hang out and you know, travel and live life.
Last thing. What's your favorite Star Wars movie?
“Return of the Jedi” for sure.
How come?
You know why? Because my dad took me to go see it. So that's what got me into “Star Wars.”
OK. I won't spoil it for people who watch the documentary but there is a nice cameo of CC Sabathia as Yoda.
Yeah, there is. I forgot about that.
Thank you for all of this time and thanks for all the memories on the field.
No problem. Thanks for having me. This was awesome.
