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Congressional Corner With Richard Neal

Congressman Richard Neal
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Will President Trump’s taxes be released before his re-election bid in November?

In today’s Congressional Corner, Massachusetts Congressman Richard Neal continues his conversation with WAMC’s Alan Chartock.

This interview was recorded July 1st.

Alan Chartock: Here we are with my congressman Richie Neal of the first district of Massachusetts. I got a letter from somebody recently who said, you're disrespectful when you call him Richie, his name is Richard. But I say no, he wants to be called Richie, though. Am I right about that?

Representative Richard Neal: You are absolutely right. And remember, I was mayor of Springfield in my youth. So I was called a lot of things.

Very funny. Now, the main thing that a lot of people know about you is that you have been on Donald Trump's tail about getting about getting his tax returns. People want to know, is there any compliance? I know we've gone through the courts on this, but what are our expectations?

Well, we anticipate that the Supreme Court in coming days, is going to administer a ruling on many of the financial issues that have been raised. And we believe that the court's ruling will then have much influence on a federal judge here in Washington who currently has the case, who has indicated that he is awaiting Supreme Court direction before he rules. So if the Supreme Court rules in these next few days, that the President has to turn over documents based on many of his financial affairs in and around the city of New York, as requested by the district attorney of Manhattan, then we believe that based upon what George McFadden has said, that he will adhere to the guidance of the Supreme Court.

But you, of course, are entitled under the law as the chair of the powerful Ways and Means Committee to see those tax returns. And he's been saying no.

Under 6103 federal law, the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, the chairman of the Finance Committee, and the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, they have the law on their side as it relates to seeing those tax returns. Now, every president since Richard Nixon has in fact, offered those tax returns for public inspection. And understanding that even in the case of President Nixon, firstly, he was reluctant to turn over those tax returns, and subsequently, he did. After that the precedent had been established, and review of the tax returns was common practice. President Trump campaigned on many occasions by saying he fully intended to offer his tax returns for public inspection. He then indicated that he couldn't do it because he was under audit. The revenue commissioner at the time, the IRS said no, that was not an adequate answer. In fact, even if you're under audit, you still could release those tax forms. After that, the president took the position essentially, which I saw by the way from day one, this was going to happen. If you remember when shortly after we won the House of Representatives, I was asked to the first the first press conference, will you seek the President's tax forms? And I said, yes, I will. And a reporter a series of reporters who would follow me through the hallways of the Capitol said to me, what do you think will happen? And here was my quote at the time, and it turned out to be prescient, when I said we are going to have a long and grinding court case. I never was naive enough to believe for one second that those tax returns were going to be turned over to the Ways and Means Committee.

When I'm astounded by it, Richie is the fact that nobody has found a way of getting them extra-legally. In other words that somebody some body in the in the tax department or these other places, hasn't found a way to get these this out there. We've had a little bit but not a lot. Does that surprise you?

Well, I have done some examination of that issue and the tax returns of the president and the vice president are carefully guarded at the IRS. And we have talked about that as to how this case has developed a number of times. But also understanding that our quest here is not political in nature. Our quest is based upon public policy. I would fully expect down the road if Vice President Biden is to be elected that he would continue to release tax forms as all presidents have. I actually had a chance about two years ago when I bumped into an individual who had been part of the joint tax committee who had requested the tax forms of Richard Nixon. And they reviewed those tax forms. There were a series of leaks at the IRS that took place at that time, but that was from an employee of the Internal Revenue Service who leaked those document. It did not come from the Joint Committee on Taxation. We treat our responsibilities as it relates to tax forms as being very important. But I also think that the President has said that he wanted to release the forms easily he could accomplish that, or simply turning them over to the Ways and Means Committee. I fully expect that we are going to prevail on this court case eventually.

Okay. So I want to talk to you about H.R. 3. I talk to everybody on the Congressional Corner. I haven't asked anybody about how that's going. The Democratic prescription drug deal. Lot of people want to see this thing happen. And I believe when the president got elected, part of his campaign was to make sure that people got a break and that the drug companies had to be brought to heal, but that hasn't turned out to be the case.

Well, I'm pretty proud of the fact that the Ways and Means Committee authored much of this legislation on H.R. 3. It considerably expands the Affordable Care Act. It provides more opportunities. It limits what you could be charged for your health care delivery. But most importantly, it embraces the idea of negotiating with the prescription manufacturers, drug companies across America. We do that with Medicare, as you know. We do that with veterans’ healthcare, as you know. And I think that President Trump campaigned mightily on that. And I know based on conversations that I've had with Speaker Pelosi, when the two of them were actually communicating that he reiterated to her a number of times, because I was in her office when she was on a phone call with him, that he was going to go forward with that sort of legislation. He has since reneged and instead, when you talk about the irony of timing, just as we were proceeding with putting H.R. 3. on the floor and passing it by the way, the President took the position to file a case in front of the Supreme Court who outlawed the Affordable Care Act. 23 million Americans have received health insurance under the Affordable Care Act. In addition, for those of us in Massachusetts, something that we could be really proud of, 100% of the children in Massachusetts are covered. 97% of the adults in Massachusetts are covered. So I think that in this instance, for the president to say he wants to do something about the idea of negotiating prescription drug prices, which is in our bill, that he wants to protect preexisting condition, which is in our bill, and then to subsequently file a court case that says that he wants to take all of these protections away from the American people, is not only inconsistent, it's flagrantly irresponsible.

So Richie Neil as a constitutional scholar, and I know you are tell me about John Roberts. I mean, this is so interesting that he is taking this position of siding with the liberals’ side of the court three or four times now, what do you make of it?

Well, I think that there were a series of things. And I look back at the rollout of the Bush administration when they nominated Justice Roberts, and then subsequently if you remember, overnight they changed that made him the Chief Justice nominee as well. I think that what he does and what he said during the rollout or the confirmation hearings, in which he was introduced as being really non-controversial, I think that what he said at that time, he said it was the job of the judge or the job of the Supreme Court to in fact call balls and strikes. So he also suggested at that time, something that has not been duly noted in recent days or weeks as he's come up with these interesting interpretations. He also said he accepted the principle of established law. And that has, as you know, has been a guiding force for the Supreme Court almost in the 230 year history of our republic. So I think that he also, and this is only speculation on my part, but I do follow it as you do. I think he became very critical of President Trump for labeling decisions that he didn't like as being a decision of a Clinton judge being a decision of a Bush Judge One, a Bush Judge Two, or an Obama judge, and I think he really took umbrage at that. I think he felt that we should not be suggesting that justices and judges are tarnished by the beliefs politically or otherwise, of the individuals who have appointed them.

Well, at least four of them are. We know that, aren't they?

That's correct. I mean, I think that, you know, Richard Nixon appointed four members of the Supreme Court, and they were the ones that came up with a series of decisions he didn't like. Just as President Eisenhower said that his two worst appointments, were Justice William Brennan and Earl Warren. But you know, it's also, I always say to my more liberal friends, that it was believed to be Justice Brennan who wrote the famous Supreme Court case in Buckley v. Valeo about campaign money. And he treated it as a free speech issue, and I believe it passed the court by a substantial number. But my point is that Kennedy complained about Byron White, Whizzer White. And Presidents subsequently complained about the individuals at least in a low key manner. And I think that Roberts has been offended by the fact that every decision that comes down from a federal court that President Trump ascribes to a former president that he might not like.

Okay, we have to go but I but I do want to say really quickly. I have a different take on it. Richie, if I may, and that is that I think the Bushes hate Trump.

And I think it's pretty clear.

Yeah. And I think he comes out of that comes out of that that group. So I think it may be a political element to this too.

Well, President Bush Jr. said he's not voting for him and President Bush Senior said he voted for Hillary Clinton.

There you go. Richie Neil, love to talk to you. Really I am so respectful of everything you do and how hard you work and I, I really appreciate it all.

Thank you.

I'm very proud you're my congressman. We'll come back one last time and we'll talk some more.

Thank you.

Dr. Alan Chartock is professor emeritus at the University at Albany. He hosts the weekly Capitol Connection series, heard on public radio stations around New York. The program, for almost 12 years, highlighted interviews with Governor Mario Cuomo and now continues with conversations with state political leaders. Dr. Chartock also appears each week on The Media Project and The Roundtable and offers commentary on Morning Edition, weekdays at 7:40 a.m.