In commemoration of Black History Month, we sit down with New York’s Secretary of State Walter T. Mosley to discuss the exciting work of the New York State Commission on African American History.
Interviewees—Walter T. Mosley, New York’s Secretary of State and Chairperson on the NYS Commission on African American History.
Past Black History Markers of Focus— Timbuctoo, Essex County, NY, Rapp Road Community Historic District, Albany County, Tuskegee Airman, Tompkins County, Aaron Mossell, Niagara County, Florence Farming Association, Oneida County, Schooner Amistad, Suffolk County, Garnet Baltimore, Rensselaer County, Douglass Home, Monroe County, Sojourner Truth, Ulster County.
Further Reading—
Timbuctoo: Sally E. Svenson, Blacks in the Adirondacks: A History, 2017.
Hadley Kruczek-Aaron, “Race and Remembering in the Adirondacks: Accounting for Timbucto in the Past and Present,” in The Archeology of Race in the Northeast, 2015.
Timbuctoo: African American History in the Adirondacks Adirondack Experience, The Museum on Blue Mountain Lake
Norman K. Dann, Practical Dreamer: Gerrit Smith and the Crusade for Social Reform, 2009.
David S. Reynolds, John Brown, Abolitionist: The Man Who Killed Slavery, Sparked the Civil War, and Seeded Civil Rights, 2006.
Russell Banks, Cloudsplitter: A Novel, 1999.
Rapp Road: Jennifer Lemak, Southern Life, Northern City: The History of Albany’s Rapp Road Community, 2015.
Tuskegee Airmen: Charles E. Francis, Tuskegee Airmen, The Men Who Changed a Nation, 2008.
J. Todd Moye, Freedom Flyers: The Tuskegee Airmen of World War II, 2010.
J. Todd Moye, The Tuskegee Airmen Oral History Project and Oral History in the National Park Service, The Journal of American History, 2002.
Daniel Haulman, The Tuskegee Airmen Chronology: A Detailed Timeline of the Red Tails and Other Black Pilots of World War II, 2018.
School Desegregation: Diane Ravitch, The Great School Wars: A History of the New York City Public Schools, 2000.
David D. Garcia, Strategies of Segregation: Race, Residence and the Struggle for Educational Equality, 2008.
Laverne Bell-Tolliver, The First Twenty-Five: An Oral History of the Desegregation of Little Rock’s Public Junior High Schools, 2018.
Michelle A. Purdy, Transforming the Elite: Black Students and the Desegregation of Private Schools, 2018.
The Florence Farming and Lumber Association: Edward Harris, “New Historical Marker Planned at Site Oneida Abolitionist Bought for Black Families to Own,” Observer-Dispatch, April 14, 2023.
S.J. Celestine Edwards, From Slavery to a Bishopric, or, The Life of Bishop Walter Hawkins of the British Methodist Episcopal Church Canada, 1891. Bishop Hawkins was one of the residents of the Florence Farming and Lumber Association before moving to Canada.
Norman K. Dann, Practical Dreamer: Gerrit Smith and the Crusade for Social Reform, 2009.
Information about Stephen Myers: https://www.albany.edu/arce/MyersXX.html
La Amistad: Marcus Rediker, The Amistad Rebellion: An Atlantic Odyssey of Slavery and Freedom, 2012.
Garnet Baltimore: Kenneth Aaron, “Troy Street Paved with Family Pride,” Albany Times Union, February 11, 2021.
RPI Alumni Hall of Fame. “Garnet Douglass Baltimore, 1859-1946,” The Cultural Landscape Foundation. “Garnet Douglass Baltimore,” Black Past.
Suzanne Spellen, “Garnet Douglass Baltimore: Troy’s Landscape Master,” New York Almanac. “The History of Oakwood Cemetery,” Oakwood Cemetery.
Frederick Douglass in Rochester: Shayla Martin, “2 Black Heroes, 2 Cities in New York: A Journey into the Past,” The New York Times, 2024.
Frederick Douglass, The Frederick Douglass Collection: A Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, My Bondage and My Freedom, 2023.
David W. Blight, Frederick Douglass: Prophet of Freedom, 2020.
Victoria Sandwick Schmitt, “Rochester’s Frederick Douglass: Part One and Part Two, Rochester History, 2005.
Sojourner Truth: Barbara Allen, Remembering Great Grandma Sojourner Truth, and Journey with Great Grandma Sojourner Truth
New York State Education Department, “Sojourner Truth’s Historic Supreme Court Documents From the New York State Archives on Display in Kingston”
New York State Archives: People vs. Solomon Gedney Sojourner Truth, Narrative of Sojourner Truth, 1850.
Nell Irvin Painter, Sojourner Truth: A Life, A Symbol, 1996.
Educator Resources:
Consider the Source New York: African American History.
Lauren Roberts:
There are an amazing amount of stories across New York's long history that that are fascinating, and many of them I hadn't heard of before doing this podcast.
Walter Mosley:
It is because one story kind of begets another story. It begets another story. Right? And it goes on from there, yeah.
Lauren Roberts:
And so part of you know, we're lucky enough to have this podcast where we can talk about these things, and so that it brings the point that many people haven't heard these stories. And so in your role as the chair of the African New York State African American history commission. I'm kind of wondering, when you look at your own background, what do you remember about learning about Black and African American History in New York State as you were growing up, or as you you know, going through your education, you know that kind of informed the role that you play now.
Walter Mosley:
Well, you know, as a kid who grew up in Brooklyn, oftentimes, you know, anybody who lives in the city, or any place of that matter, that has a lot of historical references you take for granted, you know, what's around you, right? And so I had a lot of people who are, who were of themselves, like historical figures, you know, in my midst, you know, but the one thing I do remember growing up, went to Montessori School, and so it was a pretty progressive type of, you know, academic experience. But even within that progressive academic experience, black history was was, you know, kind of couched in to slavery and civil rights movement, and that was pretty much it. You know, you pick your heroes or sheroes based upon that's popular, that kind of segment within our nation's history and our state's history. But the one thing that I've you know, when I matriculated to high school and then the college where I then became, like a kind of, like I was African American and African history major, and so I got to learn so much more about who I, who I was. And there's like this kind of, this ebb and flow you go through in terms of finding out more about yourself, first you become angry excited. Then you become angry and upset that, why didn't I get learn this when I was much younger? And then you get come to our understanding that you know what, even what I'm learning now, it's just the surface, that there's so much, and they all are in that everyone's history is kind of interconnected, you know, one another, regardless of where you your ethnicity, your quote, unquote race, your sex, or in your socioeconomic standing, and that's where the learning, truly, you know, emanates in a way that it can be a part of you, but it's also something that you feel proud of Sharing, because you can always find a common denominator that you know, you can share with someone who is of Irish ancestry or German ancestry, or, you know, from any of the 63 nations that make up Africa or from Southeast Asia. Those are the things that when you talk about American history, you start to realize that American history is so much more diverse than what we've become accustomed to, unfortunately, in a learned environment we call our educational system.
Lauren Roberts:
Yeah. And so having that experience, you become Secretary of State New York, and Governor Hochul has put into place. This the commission in 2022 and you come in in 2024 as the Chair. Yes, can you tell us a little bit about, you know, what that was like?
Walter Mosley:
Okay, so some of this predates me, right? So my predecessor, Robert Rodriguez, who now sits as our president and CEO of DASNY, was the co chair when he was in the position of Secretary of State, along with Hazel Dukes, the late great Hazel Dukes, President Emeritus of the New York State Conference for the NAACP. From there in 2022 the executive order 15, which, if people are aware, executive order 15 is also the same executive order that was granted after the Civil War in terms of providing resources and reallocation of wealth and land to the recently freed enslaved Africans following World War, following Civil War. So executive order 15 is symbolic of the executive order. 15 back then, 15 members were selected, seven by the governor, three, three, the rest were equally divided between the assembly, majority assembly minority Senate leadership and senate minority leadership from their commission was created of 22 individuals. They met, and that led a portion of 2022 and as a result, they came up with these 22 recommendations, which was then released in 2024 from there, these recommendations have been given to us as a commission. To implement. How do we, how do we the money that were allocated for this commission? How do we disperse it? How do we use it in a way that's most beneficial to not only the Black and African American community, but to all New Yorkers who need to be aware of all things that are that are germane to the impact that African Americans and black New Yorkers have made. You know, for the betterment of our state.
Lauren Roberts:
So can you tell us a little bit about the recommendation? So that's, that's a lot of recommendations to try to, you know, to try to incorporate. What were some that really stuck out to you, that you thought this is a priority? Let's try to really implement these first.
Walter Mosley:
Well, I think some of the ones that stood up to me were like the more obvious ones in terms of, how do we preserve landmarks? How do we preserve, you know, buildings and sites. Obviously, we do this in conjunction with our Parks Recreation, historic preservation sister agency. You know, another one that that kind of stood out was, how do we implement all of these recommendations when it comes to the the pedagogical perspective, how do we educate and how do we put that into our environment? How do we put this into our learning environment? You know, for you know, children who are matriculating through grade school and high school throughout the state of New York, I think, obviously there are some that in terms of creating the Hazel Dukes Fellowship, which was named after, obviously Dr Hazel dukes, and having that individual continuing to work on finding ways in which we can further expand possibilities and recommendations that might have been might have been thought of during this initial wave of recommendations, because we understand that history is always ongoing and always evolving. I think those probably are some of the three things that kind of stand out to me. But there are a number of recommendations that I think emanating from this actual commission, that I believe were really, really on target. And from, you know, I will also give credit to the commission, is that they did not think it was just upon them to come up with recommendations. They went on statewide tours all throughout New York State, laid a portion of 2022 and create and took recommendations from individuals from all walks of life, and from there they, you know, took all that information in and came up with these recommendations.
Lauren Roberts:
And so are the recommendations now being implemented? Is that the stage that they're at right now?
Walter Mosley:
Yeah, so we're in a stage right now. The governor allocated $16 million to this commission. Obviously, we we have to be very mindful of how we spend that those dollars, and very, you know, diligent in terms of those dollars, or how are they being spent to meet out the recommendations by the commission. So right now we are obviously putting together RFPs. We're putting together programming, you know, in affiliation with other sister agencies. So that takes a lot of collaboration and coordination amongst a whole bunch of people from different state agencies. And then obviously we got to make sure that, you know, we give it to the department and then we give it to the governor to get approval. So it takes time, but, you know, we waited this long, and I don't think a few months or a few weeks is going to, you know, hurt us, so long as we we do what was recommended and we get the right outcomes, where the recommendations that I find quite interesting is, how do we look at public policy that has been shaped based upon the inequities that come out of, you know, the slave movement, and how that, how they still shape public policy today. So how do we, you know, how do we talk about that? How do we, you know, teach young people about that. How do we teach, you know, teachers on people who are in the system teaching already, and those who are matriculating through college who want to become teachers, certified teachers. So you know that all takes, you know, working with, you know, State University of New York, working with our state ed department, Dr Rosa, who's our commissioner, and Dr Lester Young, who's the region chair. So those conversations that have to be had, and they're almost kind of been taking place all simultaneously. So to make sure that we kind of focus on that, make sure that we do it in the right way, while at the same time being sensitive to other people's needs and demands. You know we have to, you know we have to do this. You know, as representatives of all New Yorkers,
Lauren Roberts:
I serve on the New York State 250 commission, and we have. A, you know, a big anniversary coming up. So we, you know, kind of feel the pressure, right, that the anniversary is knocking on her door. Now, I know that there are a couple anniversaries coming up. 2026 is the 200th year of the first 11 enslaved people that were brought to New Amsterdam. And then 2027—
Walter Mosley:
11, 9, depends on who you ask.
Lauren Roberts:
Okay, so the first several enslaved people that were brought brought to New Amsterdam, and then 2027 is the 200th anniversary of the final gradual emancipation, the end of of slavery in New York. So in thinking about those types of things are, is the commission looking to do commemorative programming, or, you know, anything for those anniversaries?
Walter Mosley:
Yeah, without, without question, you know, obviously we are that we have other Bicentennial you know, groups and organizations. Obviously, we just did the celebration of the Erie Canal and and we kind of intertwined some of what they celebrated on the Erie Canal, understanding the importance of the Erie Canal in regards to indigenous folks, in regards to enslaved Africans who are looking for a better place, in regards to the women's movement, in regards to the modern day civil rights movement, all emanate from a large part because of the developments and the people who congregated along the Erie Canal. So we were a part of that, and small part. But again, these things, next to huge celebrations that we're looking to kind of highlight in the state of New York will have, will have a significant portion of that focusing in on, you know, the black community, the African American community, and the anniversaries that will be acknowledging. Obviously, some won't be celebrating, but we'll acknowledge them and their importance. Because I often tell people that enslavement wasn't a part of our history. Enslavement is a part of what we had to overcome, and our history is what we've overcome and what we've accomplished in spite of enslavement. So so we're looking forward to those conversations and and obviously we're again, we're going to be coordinated with sister state agencies. We're going to be a part of that. We got an exhibit that's going to be in the State Museum. And I'm very keenly aware of the notion that whatever we put in those state museums are going to be representative and of what we're trying to convey to folks. And what we don't want to convey is that, again, slavery is not our history. Slavery is just something we overcame. And I stress that to my staff over and over again and so and I stress that to their counterparts at State Museum and and the like, to understand that, we have to kind of look at that period of our of our state and of our nation in a different way, because when we when we don't, we tend to put out misleading judgments and perspectives about certain people. Because if I only look at a person, I see a descendant of slaves, then I'm only going to look at that person. In that regard, I'm not going to look at that person you know, beyond that, and messaging imagery is critically important as relates to, you know, how we disseminate the recommendations of the commission
Lauren Roberts:
Along with those anniversaries, qnd, you know, working with the State Museum and the exhibit that you're—that's going to go along with that tourism and heritage tourism in particular, is a big part of of anniversaries, both, you know, celebratory and commemorative. So I thought I read in that one of the recommendations had to do with travel. And I thought that was so interesting. I just met with a travel writer from New York City talking about the battles Saratoga. And you know, he was very interested in in African American history in Saratoga, Saratoga Springs, and during the battles. So people who come to different anniversary events really want to see themselves reflected in in the history, no matter whether it's about the Revolutionary War or, you know, the mineral springs at Saratoga, using my own examples, because I'm familiar with but, but in in thinking about heritage tourism and how much money it brings into especially the state of New York, you know, how are is that something that you want to focus on for, you know, bringing people to spots that are important around African American history.
Walter Mosley:
And like I said, you know, this has been an ongoing learning experience for me. So, for instance. On the location of Timbuktu, which is in North Elba people tend to just look at this, maybe in isolation, and if they look beyond the surface, and obviously they know why it was created in terms of further emancipating African American men who were formerly enslaved and given all and given a plot of land, which, at the time required New York, required by New York State to vote, you had to own land or own property. And as a result, although the experiment did not come fully to fruition in terms of its outcome, its desired outcome. It did serve as a precipice of how we look at, you know, emancipation. So how do we look at, you know, further indoctrinating someone's franchise that you had to be a landowner, you had to have a home. But the backstory of it is obviously one of our most famous abolitionists would also, you know, add to that and have several plots of land to add to Gary Smith's idea of Timbuktu. And he would go on, unfortunately, to lose his life in the invasion of Dobbs Ferry, which was the precursor to the Civil War. So and if you look at Timbuktu, obviously, many of your listeners know that Timbuktu is one of the most learned institutions in all of the eastern hemisphere, that includes all of Europe, you know, where people would come to learn and be educated at a very sophisticated level. And that was housed in Mali, Mali, as you know, the home of probably the most rich, richest man who ever lived in the face of earth. And that's Mansa, Musa, you know who came over to the to what we call the Americas back in the 1300s was trading with indigenous people back then, back and forth, and that's well documented. And so there are stories within stories that allow, if you dig, dig just you don't have to think too much. But if you just drill down just a little bit, you know, you can just learn so much more about, you know, why things are named the way that you know, why they're named this, or who was involved and who you know, added on to it, and you know, what were their back stories? And I just, you know, I think I'm here for a reason in this time because lover of history and appreciation have an appreciation of history. Being one of the name co chairs for this commission, it's probably one of the greatest harms I could have as secretary
Lauren Roberts:
In your talking about Timbuktu. It reminds me of your statements before, about, you know, slavery not being a part of your history, but about something you overcame. When you think about what the people who went to, I'm talking about the North Elba Timbuktu from the Gerrit Smith, and thinking about what they had to overcome just in order to be able to vote in New York State. It seems like that's a pretty strong theme in New York State's African American history.
Walter Mosley:
Likewise, the audacity for Garrett Smith to do what he did then, you know, just imagine what type of what he had to overcome, and all obstacles that might have been placed, you know, his way, you know. So again, it goes back to what we talked about earlier. Is that the historical stories are not just germane to African Americans, but they're germane to us as a state, us as New Yorkers, and us as kind of the precursor as to how our our nation, would unfold. And so I always think the more you learn about yourself, the more you learn about others, because we just didn't do this in a vacuum. There had to be other people who provided the resources, the planning, the audacity to think beyond what was the norm, and to understand that it took, you know, almost to the people from different ethnicities, to to be here, to make us be here in the state that we live in today.
Lauren Roberts:
So what's next for the commission?
Walter Mosley:
Well, obviously, like you said, Two anniversaries that are coming up. We're looking forward to that. The I love New York black travel initiative, the Hazel Duke, like I said, the fellowship that we're looking to put in place and hire qualified individual our black. Leadership Institute State University of New York, as well as our commission study for reparations and racial justice. Those are things that we're looking forward to, but these upcoming celebrations, these anniversary celebrations, where we're looking forward to, you know, how do we put ourselves forward in earnest for the most part, for the first time, and we're just looking forward to all of these things, because even as a legislature, we would talk about these issues kind of like in isolation from a public policy perspective. But the governor had the foresight, and she had the courage to, you know, make this one of her most significant initiatives from an executive order perspective. And she could have picked anything, but she picked this commission to create, and for that, you know, she's, she deserves a lot of credit, because I'm sure she wasn't uniformly accepted. There were a lot of there wasn't uniformity in terms of accepting this, but she understood the importance of it, and she understands the importance of not only helping to advance and highlight the history that African Americans and black New Yorkers have made here in the state of New York, but how it has benefited all New Yorkers up until this very day. Are we perfect? No, but we strive for perfection, and I think this was a major step towards that pathway, towards that ultimate end goal. So I give the governor all the credit in the world.
Lauren Roberts:
Well, I want to thank you for your time and your insight into this commission, and for all of the commissioners, all of the work that they did in gathering the information. As you know, our state is huge and diverse, and all of the communities, you know, speaking as a local historian, our communities have such diverse history, and they are very passionate about what they believe is their history, you know, the things that they really see as their identity. It's important to communities. So it's so when you have a commission of of only 15 people going out around this state and trying to gather what people on the street really feel passionate about, it is yeoman's work, very difficult. So you know, to all the all of the commissioners that were a part of it, and I'm sure all of the subcommittees and consultants that also did that work. It's a huge task, and it's so great that they were able to come up with so many recommendations, which it sounds like are well on their way to implement.
Walter Mosley:
My title is co chair, but you know the people who do the work, you know the commissioners. You know they this is voluntary, and for them to have taken the time to travel have these meetings all across the state. You know, we couldn't pay them enough because, you know, the work that they they've done, and and and continue to do. Will, I believe, put New York again at the forefront of showing the rest of the nation how we can embrace history without having to be difficult amongst one another, And I think now more than ever that's needed.
Lauren Roberts:
Thanks for listening to a New York minute in history. This podcast is a production of WAMC, northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum With support from the William G. Pomeroy foundation. Our producer is Aaron Shellow-Lavine. A big thanks to Secretary of State Walter Moseley for taking part. If you enjoyed this month's episode, make sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and share on social media to learn more about our guests and the show. Check us out@wamc.org We're also on x and Instagram at NY History Minute. I'm Lauren Roberts until next time, Excelsior.
