The last time we spoke with “All Things Considered” host Ari Shapiro, he was looking back on his long reporting career for NPR and his life’s detours into cabaret performance and Pink Martini. Now, he’s embarking on a new chapter on Netflix. Shapiro is the new host of “The Mole,” a rebooted reality competition.
Welcome back!
Hi Ian! It is so funny to hear that clip, because I feel like I'm really accustomed to hearing myself on the radio, but TV still makes me really nervous, and hearing it reminds me of just how out of my depth I felt when I was doing that.
So, given that, what made you want to do this?
It's true what I said in that clip. I really have honestly been a fan of the show since its earliest days. It's always been hosted by a journalist. Originally, Anderson Cooper when the show was on ABC and then when Netflix rebooted it for the first season Alex Wagner from MSNBC was the host. And I'm not like a huge reality TV junkie, but I've just always loved this show. And as you mentioned the last time we talked; I was kind of on book tour promoting my memoir 'The Best Strangers in the World.' And after that book did relatively well, my agents were like, ‘Well, what else do you want to do?’ And I said, ‘God, I'd love to host a show like 'The Mole.' They said, ‘Well, actually, 'The Mole's' looking for a new host,’ and I was like, ‘What!’ The next thing I knew, I was flying to Malaysia to make this lifelong dream come true.
So, for people who haven't seen it in a while, how does the game actually work? It's fairly complicated for reality TV.
Yeah, basically there are 12 players who work as a team to add money to the pot that one of them will win at the end. One of the 12 is secretly working to sabotage the team, and that person is the mole. Every episode, all the players take a 20-question quiz, 'Who is the Mole,' and so they have to find out as much as they can about each other. It's very espionage and intrigue. The person who gets the most questions wrong on each quiz gets immediately eliminated. But every episode takes place in a completely different location. Every season takes place in a different country. So, this season is in Malaysia, and we were just pinballing all over the country from skyscrapers to jungles to tropical beaches. And so, it has a very kind of like 007 espionage thriller, popcorn summer movie kind of feel to it, which is what I've always loved about the show. It feels smart and tricky and sophisticated and campy and fun, and it also feels like it's never gratuitously cruel to the contestants, which appealed to me a lot.
A lot of Netflix personalities end up in multiple Netflix projects. So, are you filming a Christmas romcom right now?
That is a great question. And no, I am not. But you put your finger on something, which is that Netflix, I think, in a very savvy way, is creating what they call the 'Netflix Reality Universe.' And so, like a couple of the contestants from season, one of them went on to do other reality shows, like 'Perfect Match.' What I think Netflix realized is that people who watch one of those shows will kind of get attached to a character and go watch another show. But no, I host 'The Mole.' That is all I do on Netflix and I am happy to stay in my lane.
How do the producers figure out who would make a good mole, given that so much of it rests on that person's shoulders?
So much rests on that person's shoulders, and it is a huge psychological burden because you've got to lie to everybody around you for six weeks straight. And what I didn't realize was that the producers cast the show, they choose the 12 contestants before they decide which one of the 12 will be the mole. So, all 12 of the people are there for some specific reason. One might be like, actually, is an expert at escape rooms. Another is sort of like an online sleuth. This woman who got famous from the documentary 'Don't F with Cats,' also another Netflix show, like the head internet sleuth from that is one of the 12 contestants. So, they all have contestants, so they all have a reason to be there. But then, after the 12 get chosen, a psychologist does like a thorough assessment of each of the 12 and reports back to the producers. Here are the people who we think could handle the burden of being the mole. And then the producers choose, but I didn't know who the mole was, which I was very grateful for because I was afraid that if I did know I would accidentally give it away. And it also made it fun for me to try to figure it out as the game went along.
Did you get it right?
No, no. I mean, eventually by the end I had figured it out. But there are moments where you'll see an elimination where there's a look of shock on my face because I was sure that the person who just got eliminated was actually the mole.
You know, I think a lot of us in radio, and you alluded to this a moment ago, kind of enjoy the fact that we don't have to put makeup on to do a lot of this work. What was adjusting to doing TV like for you?
I don't know if you know this about Malaysia in July and August, but it is hot. It is something that one of the contestants says at the very beginning of the series. Like, ‘I'm not used to this humidity.’
It is so hot, and when you're on the radio, no one can see if you've got a shiny forehead. But the entire production crew was Australian, and they kept reminding me that it was in HD. This is HD. So, it was really important that I not be sweaty, which is challenging when the producers have decided they like the way you look in layers and you’re in a hot humid environment. So, it was as much a burden for the wardrobe team and the makeup team as it was for me, but somehow, we got through it.
Did you get any advice from some of your predecessors who did come from the world of journalism about doing 'The Mole?'
Alex Wagner is actually a good friend of mine, so I leaned on her a little bit. But the other person who I leaned on a lot was Alan Cumming because, as you know, Alan and I do a cabaret show together. We've been touring the country for years with this show. We call it 'Och and Oy.' 'Och' is sort of the Scottish version of 'Oy,' the Jewish version. And so, he and I have been friends since before he hosted 'The Traitors,' a reality competition which is very similar to 'The Mole,' and long before I hosted 'The Mole.' So, when I got this job offer, I was sworn to secrecy, but I looped in Alan because I knew that I was going to be leaning heavily on him for advice and guidance. And he was a great kind of phone-a-friend while I was in Malaysia. The other, actually the other person who I leaned on specifically on the issue of sweating. I have a friend who is a costume designer for the HBO show 'We're Here,' which sends drag queens to small towns to do makeovers. So, when I got the job hosting 'The Mole,' I immediately DM’ed my friend Diego. I was like, ‘Diego, I know those queens are out in that Texas heat and those small towns in full face and their look stays in place. What products do they use?’ So, he gave me a list of things that he got from the makeup team on 'We’re Here' that all the drag queens use. So, I showed up in Malaysia with his suitcase full of products called like 'Preserve the Serve.'
Did it work?
The makeup artist was quick to remind me that, because this is HD, we were not going to be using those products.
Let me ask you one serious question while we have you. I know NPR has got a bit of a bullseye on it lately, after that Uri Berliner essay. I know our listeners who are also, of course, NPR listeners, are wondering about the future of NPR. What do you think they should know about the state of the news operation right now?
I think others have done a better job than I can do right here of going point by point through that public letter and showing the kind of flaws and inaccuracies in it. So, I won't do that now, but I will just say that the team that I work with, which extends to the reporters we have all over the country and all over the world, and also the folks at local member stations like you who are covering communities that, in many cases have a real dearth of serious journalists reporting the news in those communities. We're as focused as we've ever been on covering this democracy, covering the world, covering science and business and politics and arts and sports and all of the other things that make up the fabric of our lives that are what people turn to public radio for. And so, we're not distracted. We're doing our work. If you tune into 'All Things Considered' this afternoon, you will hear a two-hour program that is as rich and nuanced and hopefully valuable and entertaining as the programming that NPR listeners have always turned to us for.
So, while you were filming, I imagine you were pretty busy. Bt did you get to steal away to do any NPR reporting in Malaysia?
I wanted to keep a firm church-state divide. I was very, very grateful to NPR for giving me a six week leave of absence to do this. And so, if people were wondering last July and August why I disappeared for a stretch of time, that's why. And frankly, we were just so busy in Malaysia that any moment of downtime I had I was really excited to get out and explore and see the country, and was not trying to practice journalism while I was there. In part because I was not there on a journalist visa, and I didn't want to get in trouble with the country for practicing journalism without a license.
