AILSA CHANG, HOST:
Lawmakers in Washington are once again at an impasse over how to keep the government open. At the center of that conflict is funding for the Department of Homeland Security. Senate Democrats want to carve off that DHS money from the broader spending package, and they want new limits on immigration agents, like a prohibition on masks and a requirement that officers carry ID. We called up Republican Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin earlier today, and I asked him whether he even agrees that ICE needs these sort of reforms.
RON JOHNSON: Well, what I agree is that we needed to secure our border. What I believe is that what we're dealing with right now is the enormous mess created by President Biden and Democrats who opened up our border, allowed millions of people to flood in this country. Where ICE is doing enforcement actions, just like they've always done - under the Obama administration, the Biden administration - where they're doing these enforcement actions and local police are cooperating, there's no violence. There's no problem. We're just enforcing the law. The problem in Minneapolis is we have a governor and a mayor who are resisting and trying...
CHANG: You don't think that ICE needs any reforms then? There should be no changes on the federal government side when it comes to immigration agents.
JOHNSON: When you ask that question, when Democrats focus on that, they're focusing on the wrong problem. The root cause of this problem is the border they opened up, the millions of people, including criminals, that they've allowed to flood in this country, and now law enforcements has to take care of that problem. But (inaudible)...
CHANG: So what changes do you think need to be seen for law enforcement...
JOHNSON: Well, first of all...
CHANG: ...To better take care of this problem that you have identified, that you have characterized?
JOHNSON: The first change was we secured the border. It has to remain secure. The second change is there are people that need to be apprehended because they're criminals, murders, rapists, sex, human and drug traffickers that need to be apprehended and either jailed or deported. And that right now is what these sanctuary cities and people like Mayor Frey and Governor Walz are resisting, and that have led to the tragedy. Had there not been an organized effort to resist those law enforcement actions, those two individuals in Minneapolis would still be alive.
CHANG: President Trump has tried to shake up the leadership for the federal immigration crackdown in Minneapolis. He's replaced the Border Patrol official Greg Bovino with border czar Tom Homan. Homan said today that he is going to, quote, "fix the situation there." Do you believe it is possible to fix the situation in Minneapolis with this change in leadership?
JOHNSON: If Governor Walz and Mayor Frey would cooperate with ICE rather than resist them, rather than send people into harm's way to create these types of martyrs, yeah. I think it can be fixed. Again, I personally - I want to target the criminals. You know, I don't want right now...
CHANG: I understand that, Senator.
JOHNSON: ...ICE targeting other people who are here working and contributing to society. But there are a lot of criminals. There are a lot of criminals that have been let in that need to be apprehended and jailed and deported.
CHANG: OK. You keep shifting blame to the mayor in Minneapolis and the governor in Minnesota. Can you tell me specifically...
JOHNSON: That's where it lays.
CHANG: ...What you want to see from - well, what do you need to see from them that's - specifically to fix the situation in Minneapolis?
JOHNSON: Do what other governors and mayors have done. Cooperate with ICE. Cooperate with federal law enforcement when they're carrying out completely legal enforcement actions. Cooperate with them. Don't resist. Don't send to your citizens in harm's way to resist them and protest against them. Cooperate. When you arrest an illegal immigrant, hold them for detention...
CHANG: And what are state and local officials supposed to...
JOHNSON: ...So that ICE can pick them up and in jail, rather than have to engage in these...
CHANG: What are state and local officials supposed to do if they see federal immigration agents doing unlawful actions, such as fatally shooting people when it's not in self-defense, when there is no imminent danger in that situation, there's no weapon being wielded right in the face of the federal agent?
JOHNSON: Their open borders, their lack of cooperation created this circumstance for that tragedy. So they should've cooperated on the front end. Right now, there will be a thorough investigation in terms of exactly what happened, and I'm just saying I've got a great deal of sympathy for those ICE officers who are under constant threat. How would you like to be in law enforcement and everybody - all of a sudden, you've got people who are opposed to what you're trying to do, showing up. You don't know whether they're armed, whether they're just, you know, brandishing cameras. You don't know. You're going to be on hair-trigger alert, and that's what caused that tragedy.
CHANG: There are still legal requirements for when any law enforcement officer can use lethal force. It's not just if they don't know if the person is armed or not. Last question, going back to the federal spending package, Democrats at least - at the very least, they just want to split DHS funding from the rest of the spending package to keep the government open. Do you agree with that idea?
JOHNSON: Then they will never fund DHS. So this is a ploy. I mean, they'll do it. They'll convince people like you that, oh, they're just being very reasonable. This is a way that they can defund DHS, just like they want to defund the police to disastrous consequences. So no, I can't support that effort.
CHANG: Republican Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, thank you very much for joining us.
JOHNSON: Have a good day. Take care. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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