Assemblyman John McDonald worries about blanket bans for adults that would include the leaf itself. “I’m not there yet only because as a pharmacist, I actually know how it works. I know that it does provide pain relief.”
Read the full transcript below:
Annie Bennett: This is Northeast Notebook from WAMC. I'm Annie Bennett.
Grant Ashley: They haven't done as many studies on this as they have other substances and other drugs.
Annie Bennett: Right.
Annie Bennett: Communities are contending with kratom. It takes many forms, and it's vexing legislators who want to appease advocates and protect the public.
Audio from Saratoga County public hearing: Concentrated synthetic opiates should not be available at convenience stores and should not have access to youth or children.
Audio from the unregulated products virtual seminar: But, in the last year, there's really been a pivot to understand this substance called kratom. Since 2015, we have seen a 1200% increase in calls to poison centers.
Annie Bennett: What does regulation in New York state look like? And what makes kratom so tricky to navigate?
John McDonald: I've had patients tell me they've moved off of opioids, and they moved on to kratom, and they use it responsibly to address their ailment.
Audio from Saratoga County public hearing: I'll call this public hearing on a proposed law identified as introductory number six, entitled: "A local law to prohibit the sale and distribution of kratom products within the county of Saratoga" to order. I'll ask the clerk to please...
Annie Bennett: On October 21st, Saratoga County in upstate New York joined the growing number of municipalities banning kratom products. But the public hearing a week prior showed a conflicted constituency.
Audio from Saratoga County public hearing:
"I believe kratom should be banned."
" A blanket ban confuses a natural agricultural leaf with predatory laboratory chemicals."
" It doesn't belong in our county."
" The board should be aware that there will be downstream effects from passage from this resolution and..."
Annie Bennett: Those in favor of a ban got their wish, like Carrie Scribner.
Carrie Scribner speaking at the Saratoga County public hearing: Remember, my son Nick Scribner died November 17th from respiratory arrest, a common side effect of raw leaf kratom. He was just 27 years old. His brother found him alone in his bed, cold and unresponsive just two weeks before Thanksgiving. Nick was a lifeguard at the Village of Ballston Spa Pool for four years. I am wearing his lifeguard whistle and his graduation tassel.
Annie Bennett: But, could something being sold in gas stations really be this deadly?
Grant Ashley: My understanding is there are some parents of people who've, you know, had kratom in their systems when they died, who've been going around to different parts of the state backing legislation to ban these products.
Annie Bennett: That was Grant Ashley, the Capital Region Bureau Chief for WAMC. Grant recalls how many people say that kratom is crucial for pain management, anxiety, and quitting drug use. He's also been tracking the different legislative responses around kratom as the country figures out what risks it might pose.
Grant Ashley: And even at the scientific level, they haven't done as many studies on this as they have other substances and other drugs.
Annie Bennett: Right.
Grant Ashley: And that makes it difficult to regulate, right? When we're having that debate over whether to ban the synthetic stuff and the leaf or just the synthetic stuff, like, it's tough to know where to draw the line because we don't know everything we need to know about these to make informed decisions.
Annie Bennett: I joined a virtual seminar to learn more.
Audio from the unregulated products virtual seminar: Thank you for joining us tonight for "Danger at the Corner Store: Kratom, Cannabis, and Other Unregulated Products." My name is Lisa Dominici, Executive Director of the Rye Youth Council, and I'm very pleased to welcome you on behalf...
Annie Bennett: I was pretty in the weeds. But, here's the gist:
Audio from the kratom virtual seminar: We're talking about many unregulated substances that are being sold locally. But in the last year, there's really been a pivot to understand this substance called kratom. And if you look at this chart, this is from the CDC. And this is telling us that since 2015, we have seen a 1200% increase in calls to poison centers for kratom-related exposures for 12 and over. So this is just capturing poisonings, right? This is not capturing use. If this is what we're seeing for poisoning, we can imagine there's a whole lot more for use.
Annie Bennett: Kratom has grabbed the headlines since the September deaths of two University of Mississippi students who had synthetic kratom in their systems. And the way the media covers kratom is influencing public opinion. Here's a clip from the Saratoga County Hearing:
Audio from Saratoga County public hearing: I'm no expert on kratom, but I've spoken to a few people, mostly doctors, and I also see it hitting the local news lately. It also hit national news. This does not belong at gas stations.
Annie Bennett: There's a lot of fear associated with kratom and much of it legitimately so. That's why New York State Assemblyman John McDonald worked on legislation to ban the substance in all forms for people under the age of 21. New York Governor Kathy Hochul signed the age limit legislation into law last year.
John McDonald: People are understanding, “Jesus, kratom, there could be a problem. We need to be mindful of this.” And I think that awareness is helpful.
Annie Bennett: But advocates say that the plant, at least in its pure form, is an important wellness tool. Assemblyman McDonald worries about blanket bans for adults that would include the leaf itself.
John McDonald: I'm not there yet only because as a pharmacist, I actually know how it works. I know that it does provide pain relief.
Annie Bennett: Back in Saratoga County, Allison Smith, the Director of Government Affairs for the Global Kratom Coalition, spoke at the public hearing on October 21st.
Allison Smith speaking at the Saratoga County public hearing: We share your concern about the dangerous products sold under the name kratom, and concentrated synthetic opiates should not be available at convenience stores and should not have access to youth or children. We recognize that there's been a loss in this community, and families deserve compassion, and policymakers deserve accurate information about the products that those circumstances involved. Botanical kratom powder and crushed leaves are not interchangeable with the concentrated chemically modified substances that the DEA has scheduled and working to schedule.
Annie Bennett: Allison's testimony highlights the major question surrounding kratom legislation: is the plant itself dangerous? Well, Grant tells me...
Grant Ashley: It depends on who you ask. I mean, you know, I've been to at least one Rensselaer County Legislature meeting where they talked about this. I've gotten emails from people saying, like, "Look, I've used kratom to manage pain or anxiety for 10 years. I'm a mother. I'm a business owner. I'm a good employee. I, you know, show up to my kids' soccer games." Right, so...
Annie Bennett: Assemblyman and pharmacist McDonald has heard similar comments from his constituents.
John McDonald: There are legitimate natural leaf products on the market that are very consistent, and people can use it to address their ailments. And it does in some circumstances - I've had patients tell me they've moved off of opioids, and they moved on to kratom, and they use it responsibly to address their, their ailment.
Annie Bennett: Still, bans are passing quickly across the state. Here's Grant:
Grant Ashley: Okay, so at least in my coverage area, I don't know of any regulations Schenectady has passed.
Annie Bennett: Okay.
Grant Ashley: Albany County passed a public health emergency order to ban the sale of kratom products, so they can fine businesses that violate that, and that has to be renewed every couple of days. But they're just waiting on the state legislature to act and regulate this, or for the county legislature to develop some more regulations around this. And then Rensselaer County passed a full ban of kratom products, including the leaf.
Annie Bennett: McDonald says that what he's heard, and his pharmacy background, stops him from supporting a full-on ban of the kratom leaf. But, he does support regulation to try to keep things standardized and safe.
John McDonald: I equate it to the fact that I know that I can have one beer comfortably. It's a Blue Moon. I know the alcohol content-
Annie Bennett: You're a Blue Moon-?
John McDonald: I'm a Blue Moon guy.
Annie Bennett: (Laughs)
John McDonald: And I can have one beer comfortably. I know that I have two, maybe not so, but I know one thing. Every time I drink a Blue Moon, it's the same alcohol content each time. And this is where marijuana has moved to, and I think it's part of a larger conversation with kratom. A lot of people just say, "ban it," and I get it. The reality is: banning only grows the underground market, which is more dangerous for individuals.
Annie Bennett: These days, anything nonpartisan feels rarer by the minute. But Grant says there's a pretty simple reason that banning kratom has so much political juice.
Grant Ashley: You know, you don't want to be the soft-on-drugs guy, right?
Annie Bennett: Right.
Grant Ashley: And I think a lot of these people are kind of weighing the calculation. Like, "Okay, I don't know a ton about this substance, but I know I'd rather err on the side of not harming people than harming people," I think is kind of the calculation being made there.
Annie Bennett: Northeast Notebook is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio. Our Executive Producer is Lucas Willard. Our Editor is Diane DeVore. Original Music by Eduardo Rivera. If you liked the show, or, hey, even if you didn't, please take a second to rate and review. It's just one small way that you can support public radio. This episode was hosted and produced by me, Annie Bennett. Thank you for listening.
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